gay + married.

Hello

recently i met someone who was moving to singapore from DC with his wife and family. through our conversations, which was so candid i almost wanted to barf, he revealed that he came out to his wife in february that he is attracted to men. (yes. im a magnet) in what seemed to be a cathartic confessional for him, he let his life's details flow like a river. anything from when he first felt the impulses. to when he finally did it. his tastes in men. and how he is trying to reconcile his identity with his family life. stereotypically, his wife has chosen to go to counseling with him in a bid to save the marriage and understand him. she is truly, like many women i have read about in these situations, incredibly strong in character. she certainly does not need him, she works in a VERY high ranking US government position. so why stay?

eventually he revealed that he was going to write a book about it. ten pages have already been written. i knew he was going to do it from a first person account but i felt he was the wrong person to tell the story. coming to singapore, he is bent on exploring his gay side, and even though his wife is trying to cope with it, he will do it without her knowledge.

i didn't believe anyone who has not come to terms with his situation can write a book that is supposed to help others in a similar situation. also i felt that his purposes were self serving and not to be a beacon of hope.

we talked about co-authoring the book, and eventually produce a documentary about it. but seeing how he is handling it, he just wants his cake and eat it. you can't do a documentary or write a book with dishonesty as the spine.

women are enablers. they hope against hope that situations will change. they want to know that their lives have not been a lie and that their womanhood is strong enough to hold on to their men.

most of these men are past the 40 year old mark. for some reasons yet to be fully explored, more men are coming out in their later years. however i found this entry in an online support group, by a man in his mid 30s. i really felt for him. he seemed desperate. but i didnt respond until i read those from others.

i think the time will come when this gets explored and studied on a sociological level. it will be an important subject in the future. i would love to be part of that movement. human sexuality is complex but in the past before organized religion, it was not as defined as it is now. something shifted in modern times. labels were drawn. but it is clear that the male species is slowly reverting back to form. i have seen this in all my travels. i was shocked even in the muslim world, the blurring of the lines are happening under the table, far from judgement. i would still want to do a documentary pilot. and if you know anyone who is willing to talk on cam, i would appreciate it. counsellors/psychologists/sociologists who study human sexuality are also welcomed.

anyway, here is a sample of what one man is going through. and how others tried to help. my input is at the bottom.

________________________________________________

"Jon"
jds44215

I am a 36 year old man who has been married for 11 years with 2
great young kids. I have known my wife since freshman year of
college. She is a good person and a good mother. I have had gay
feelings since college and acting on them anonymously while single
and married. She has no idea.

Now,those feelings have grown stronger. Over the last 3 mos. I have
attended some gay events as well as become more involved in gay
issues. I have realized that the gay feelings are more than just
passing feelings. while I love my wife, I do not desire her.

My marriage hit rock bottom about 8 mos ago. It has been up and
down for the last few years but this is the worst. There is little
communication and no physical relationship for 6 mos. Recently, we
have even talked of separating and possibly divorce. Though, she is
willing to do anything to save the marriage.

I am not sure what to do. I could try to save the marriage which I
am unsure if it can be saved or if I want to save it. I think I
would be doing that for the kids. I have worried about the impact
of a divorce on the kids. I am even more worried about what a gay
life would mean for them.

Any thoughts? Any words of wisdom?


bob kadow
bkadow

Re: [Gay Married Men] Confused at 36

Yes, you should divorce...but, and I stress, do not tell your wife you are gay
or you stand a good chance of loosing the kids. When I got a divorce my wife
wanted it and I kept my mouth shut and let her.i had played around thru my whole
marriage. It was in the 50's when all nice guys got married and had families. As
a result I kept my kids close and over the years shared my bed with several men
in relationships. If they ever knew or guessed, it never came up or was
discussed. I lasted 10 years in my marriage.If you feel you have to come out to
the kids, wait until they are in their teens and can understand more and let
them know that you did not come out earlier to them for fear of your wife
stopping your chances of seeing them. Also, many woman question their alure if
confronted with the fact their husband likes men, and go thru a rough time with
a sense of lost idenity. I feel good about the fact I did not tell my wife I was
gay. Even today I have never opened up to my
kids, tho I am sure they know, it is just unspoken.

Good luck, Bob


William Smith
bjdelaware

Re: [Gay Married Men] Confused at 36

Hi Jon,

I don't want to add to your worries, but I have some additional things I
believe you should throw into the mix as you consider your future. Staying
married could turn out to be very difficult. A difficult marraige would
probably be a lot worse on your kids than a divorce handled with their best
intersts in mind. Someone helped me come to this realization. You would be a
far greater asset to your children if you are happy and content in your life,
regardless of what that may be, than you will if you try to force something that
isn't meant to be and are subsequently miserable because of it.

In todays world, it is highly likely that your kids would accept you for who
you are regardless. Please try to consider this along with all the other
possibilities you must consider.

Good luck to you,

Will
"martinclipper314"
martinclippe...

Re: Confused at 36

Just my opinion.

I think that living in a pressure cooker at 36 is way too young to
stand the heat for too long. Many men, for one reason or another,
reach that point at 50 or beyond, but at that age its seems easier to
deal with a situation like yours. I guess maturity goes a long way in
helping us control our impulses.

At your early age to condemn your wife to be a by stander and live a
sexless existence is awfully cruel, that is unless you devise some
sort of "arrangement" which both of you can live with.

Arrangements can take many forms like, "don't ask don't tell, each
doing your own thing on the side, each taking separate vacations once
a year, and so on and so on.

However, all "arrangements" have dangers. Getting emotionally
involved with another is just one. Falling into promiscous bahavior,
sexual addiction or catching a STD are just a few more drawbacks.

Just a caution. At a young age one fantasizes about gay life as being
the ultimate dream come true. Nonetheless if one hasn't toned up at
the gym, isn't masculine looking and is not ready for the free fall
once one becomes a regular at the gay bar, then one better think
things over very carefully.

Changing one's life at 35 is like the lotto, you can hit the jack pot
but the majority will be playing over and over again trying to hit it
big time.

Clipper

MY ENTRY:

Re: Confused at 36

Clipper,

"Just a caution. At a young age one fantasizes about gay life as being
> the ultimate dream come true. Nonetheless if one hasn't toned up at
> the gym, isn't masculine looking and is not ready for the free fall
> once one becomes a regular at the gay bar, then one better think
> things over very carefully. "

Is THIS what you think being gay is about??? You are displaying internal
homophobia. Gay life is like any other life with the difference being the preference to have sex
with men. Being gay should never change your core values. And if you are not one for the
bar scene being a so called straight person, being gay will certainly not change that.

Jon, do what is most compassionate for yourself. If you are unhappy, you are
useless to your wife and your family. You will unwittingly display traits that will pass
on the wrong message.

And please everyone, educate yourself. Being gay does not mean being more
promiscuous or out there as you would have been in your straight lives. As for the jackpot,
is that not what everyone wants here? And isnt the 'jackpot' the hardest to thing to get no
matter what you are? But if anyone here wants an assurance or guarantee, there is
none. Like in anything in life, changing your life may get compassion from those you love and
you may find a male life partner that is meant for YOU (check out McGreevey's life), or
it may all go south. Is it worth living a double life or being confused? You decide.

And PS. 36 is a good time to make that decision because you can still make a
difference in your life as well as that of your family's. Unlike some of these guys who chose
to confront this when they are 45 or 50, their wives may not be able to 'join the market'
anymore. Yours can. Is that more compassionate for her? You decide.

Ultimately, you have to decide. It will kill you to try to live both ways,
especially when you are so young. And when you KNOW you cannot run away from your insides.

"martinclipper314"
martinclippe...

Re: Confused at 36

If you've read my response CAREFULLY I never advised Jon to stay in
his marriage, I advised him that making an "arrangement" can be a way
out, although not perfect, but what in life is perfect, do you know
of anything?

I advised Jon about a middle ground because he mentioned that leaving
his son was destroying him. Only a father who loves his family knows
these feelings. Some men can't just walk out of a family without much
thought to it, caring a hoot about the collateral damage left behind,
like McGreevy did, is too darn cruel. Most men don't function like
that!

When marriges reach a level of CONSTANT MISERY then its time to
leave. However the levels of misery that you can take are only
determined by the person in question, not by us. Finding true
happiness after the fact can be tricky. This so called "Happiness"
garbage sounds more like the Clichés put out by Oprah and Dr. Phil.
Most people on this planet aren't that shallow and gulable. What is
happiness for one person is another person's misery, go figure. Is
living a Gay life a sure way of finding happiness?

Gay life is like anything else, however its much more youth oriented
with buff bodies a plus, AND YOU KNOW IT! Bars are basically meat
racks and once you've been seen several times you're a "has been"
unless you keep on moving from bar to bar. Novelty is very important.

Being masculine is a SUPER plus as you age in the gay world. Not
having it is hazerdous. A young Fem like twink can be cute to a
certain degree until cracks begin to appear on his face. Being
percieved as a Fem, like Richard Simmonds or Carson Kressley, when
old and not rich, is to be relegated to the jokes of the younger
crowd. Is it any wonder Fem guys become the clowns of the gay world
as they age? Its sad.

Its awfully mean to give guys past 35 the perception that they will
be hits once they leave a marriage, specially if not fit or percieved
as a bit fem. It "ain't easy" as they say in the Bronx, but life
isn't all rosey either, life is very COMPLEX!

Clipper

ME

Re: Confused at 36

hey clipper

thanks so much for responding. i really appreciate it. but again while some of
the things you said obviously have bearings, they are still stereotypes. it does seem that
gay life is youth oriented, at least in the US where advertizers focus mainly on age range
15-35 gay or straight, but that is what popular media wants
to see. youth sells. but if you go to say, a gay and lesbian center like the one in
downtown new york city, you will find there are gay professionals who lead regular lives who
are (GASP) past 30.

i dont think mcgreevey walked out not thinking of the collateral damage. but
even if that is what you chose to believe, the fact remains that he is now happier, found
love at (GASP) past 45 years of age with a (GASP) monogamous Aussie. his 13 year old still
loves him. his 1st ex wife accepts him and so does all the extended family members. the
only one perhaps is dina.

agreed the points you made about misery. disagree about what you said about
oprah. happiness according to her is possible, but yes it is YOUR definiton of
happiness. if you know in your heart what will make you complete, do it. as macgreevey has said,
the only fundamental difference between a relationship with his wives and his current
life partner, is that he is honest. and that makes him full. and happy.

more about gay stereotypes. of course everyone has seen the muscle boys, and
heard the stories of saunas and promiscuous sex and being single at 50 etc. is being buff
in the gay world bad? hmm. well, when you watch gay porn or pick up a magazine, do you try
to find a fat dude to get hot with? let's be honest. men are visual, sexual animals.
even when they are 50 or 60. and women, well, they arent. so since this is a group among
men, can we at least be honest about that? muscles is a plus. and one should despise an
entire community made up of men, who appreciate just that. as for other lifestyle
choices, they do exist. but they are choices. there are equally as many men who are not into
that. if you are not into anonymous sex (which i will venture a guess many of you have
tried), then go out and search out those who are not into that. will you be happily attached
till you die? like in any relationship there is no guarantee. as many of you have
already realized, your marriages did not prevent this from happening. were your marriages
guaranteed to keep you with someone for the rest of your lives? no.

you can choose. if you choose not to erm, be 'buff' that is your choice. but there will be others who share
your lifestyle. as for fem guys being the scum of both the gay and straight world. well yes
beauty fades,and some do get made fun of but that like many other reasons for conflict,
is based on ignorance.

you will find if you talk to them, these 'fem' twinks etc, and i dare assume you
haven't with your view on things, that they live pretty adjusted lives. a shop assistant in
scoop nyc once noticed me with my (unfortunately) gay + married date. and he offered me some onjective
insight into my 'relationship' that no one else has ever, gay bi or straight, been able
to give. and yes he is a flamer.

im not saying that twinks, queens etc have some extra powers of observations.
certainly it is individual based. but because it is so, you can't white wash it all and say
they are the butt of everyone's jokes when they get older. i am saying that everyone has
value. and just because you may perhaps see them as dolls waiting to lose their market
value with the cracks of time, doesn't negate their role in life and society. dont hate the
clinique loving queen.

your viewpoints actually seem burdened by the 'straight' view on things. i know
transexuals, fem boys etc and again i can tell you that they are well adjusted
people with jet setting and professional jobs. and they would kick your ass for the things
you said faster than you can say, FLYING SPIKED HEEL!

look clipper, the final thing is: gay life isn't just an american experience.
if you were to travel, you will realize that 36 is SO young. there are american men in Asia
who were straight but came here to work, and discovered that even in their 40's they are
not off the shelves. in fact many i spoke to are rediscovering, dare i say it, happiness.

as joeboot has said, it is not too late for the original writer to rediscove his
life. as macgreevey has said as well, it is better to live ONE life that is honest, than
two that is dishonest.

but again, that is up to the individual. what we have to do, is to be careful
not to disseminate gay stereotypes within our own community. yes that includes you
clipper, since it is safe to assume you fall into the category of MSM, men who have sex
with men. if you are already one of us, dont fight us.

bronx eh? well life may not not be easy there, but life isn't just about the
bronx. there is a bigger world out there not fettered by advertizing demographics and dangerous
adult cultivated stereotypes (which btw, are the reasons kids find it so hard to come
out). all i can say is, from my perspective, travel, and you will realize life isnt actually
half bad.

hugs to u.

9/11

i want you all to do something for yourself.

a recently completed documentary on 9/11, just prior to the 5th anniversary of the attacks, is making its run around the US. i think the producers failed to secure wider distribution channels. it is not on worldwide release. i can bet that countries like singapore will never hear of it or see it.

someone put this film on google video because he believed it was important that the message be shared.

i found it by accident when i was looking for pictures of the event on the anniversary of the attacks.

i urge you to watch this.

watch this.

watch this.

watch this.

there are many other films dedicated to the conspiracy behind 9/11. this one has the 4 Jersey girls as part of the narrative, the women who pressed for the 9/11 commission to happen.

download the google viewer coz its the only way to see the film other than getting to the theater or buying the dvd, spend the time to download the film.

understand how the american government has the blood of its own people on its hands.
learn how the concept of democracy is failing in the US under the current leadership.
assess whether there is a core similarity between the US president and any 'dictator' he is trying to destroy.
question the true intentions for the main thrusts of the current US foreign policy...who is it really benefitting?
what sort of nation is it that protects its leaders and not the people that voted them in?

then appreciate the power of 4 ordinary women who just wanted the truth. if there is anything great the US should stand for, it is that ordinary citizens can fight for the truth. they may fail. but at least they are allowed to try.

again:

the film:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=911+press+for+truth

the full information about what actually happened and got reported:

http://complete911timeline.org

the film site:

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

don't just cry for those sacrificed and murdered on 9/11. without knowledge of the truth, their deaths would have been in vain.

The Power of Cher

So what if she is an icon.

I was never really into her.

I did think her appearance on Will & Grace was hilarious. But more because of Jack....

Then I watched the censored version of her farewell concert on national TV. Yes censored...comments about queens in her audience didn't go down well with the censors here.

I thought it was so creative that when I got back to the US, I bought the DVD.

I watched a little of it again tonight. Then I realized that the whole thing could be summed up in one word:

Hot.

Audience: Hot hot hot. You got to respect an artiste if she can bring in that many hot bods in front of, and on the stage. And the odd thing is, even the older members were hot. Then again, she has a strong gay fan base. And we all know that gay people generally primp themselves more haha.

The final audience tally was made up of: gay men and women who defied the stereotype, straight men who were either comfortable with themselves or looking at the hot gay guy next to them, women who wonder why the men have better complexions, and the ultra fag hags who would lip sync every song like the best drag queen on the market. I jest of course...except for the bit about the straight men. When you think about it, it is so good that regardless of what you are, you can still be in a concert hall with people of different persuasions and still enjoy yourself. For two hours, prejudice didn't seem to exist.

Show: Extremely hot. Great staging, lighting, costumes...nothing could be faulted. Well, maybe the aerial acrobatics that was not as good as Madonna's concerts.

What was truly hot though was Cher's staying power.

For one thing, plastic surgery etc aside, she looked hot. And her youthful spirit was even hotter. She didn't look out of place performing for kids from 18 to 50 years old. Nor did she look out of place sharing the stage with dancers half her age at least.

There is a guy in Singapore called Dick Lee, a supposedly prolific singer songwriter whose current stage musical may actually hit Broadway by 2008. He turned up at his 50th birthday bash dressed as the Pope and got into a lot of trouble. If you were to look at him, he seriously does not look or act anywhere close to 50. His body is still fab, his face shows no signs, he talks in current lingo. And he is fabbbbuuulllouuusss in his designer clothes.

Not everyone is as lucky as he is. To be so current that he is still adored by people half his age and younger. To have his work still resonate with the audience. To still have a strong sense of being. I have seen so many ex VPs, CEOs, Consultants, Creative Directors etc that lost their sense of being after they left their titles. It is always dangerous for people to allow designations to define their lives. The titles bear no reflection upon their place in the world. I don't even think they felt down because they lost their jobs or were encouraged to move on. It was more because they felt that they had no value and that they lost their connection.

Value.

Today's world dictates that the one's value is tied to one's relevance to the world around them. To be in the know, to be on top of everything current. To constantly have a sharp mind. And to not be lost in whichever age group you are communicating with, especially those that fall within the main advertising demographics.

I talked to one guy who used to head a huge creative team. He was let go after gazillion years of service. He seemed to brighten up when he talked about his past glories and achievements. I am actually impressed by his body of work but at the same time, I sensed some sadness. Like he didn't know what was next. Like his age is now the number that will limit his opportunities.

I wonder though if it does end up as that for everyone: a numbers game. A fight between experience and youth. But then I look at the cases of some of the most successful businessmen, media personalities, industry experts etc and they all have the same internal progressive qualities. They never look back. It is always about staying in the moment, and moving on to the next thing. It is about the pursuit of goals and dreams and achievements, and not about money. It is always about what has not been done yet.

I realized that I don't want to look back and reminisce. The first sign of being irrelevant is when you start telling yourself, Oh I did that once or I remember when... Sure some day you would want to have a retrospective look at the body of achievements you have amassed. But that is probably closer to when you are going to die.

So I found my worst fear: to be irrelevant, and out of sync with society and youth culture. To be coasting. Out of touch. Voxless. To stop having the next thing to work on.

With no intention of being a drama queen, I think I would seriously take a knife and slice my wrists if I end up being irrelevant.

Why live when you are either coasting and waiting to die, or if you have stopped progressing and are dead inside already?

Think about it.